DOJ FRAUD CHIEF: Fraudsters Should Fear a 6 A.M. Knock on the Door

In an exclusive interview, Daily Signal legal analyst Mehek Cooke discussed with Assistant Attorney General Colin McDonald why the Justice Department launched its inaugural state partnership roundtable in Ohio, how data sharing could help investigators identify fraudsters who target multiple government programs, and why other states should join the effort.

This transcript has been slightly edited for clarity.

Mehek Cooke: Assistant Attorney General McDonald, thank you so much for being here in Ohio today.

Colin McDonald: Thank you so much for having me. It’s great to be here.

Cooke: So, I was able to witness a closed-door roundtable where you’re leading a charge to detect fraud in Ohio with multiple partners and Ohio officials. Can you tell me why you started in Ohio with this?

McDonald: Well, thanks for chatting with me here. It’s so important to get the word out about the fraud efforts that we’re engaged in. We started here on the strength of some great U.S. attorneys who are here in the state of Ohio and some willing state partners who, when we came to them and said, “Hey, we have these ideas for how we can do better together, to come together as one team,” they were willing down the line to say, “Yes, we’re willing to do that and to become one team to fight for the American taxpayer and to make sure that we can stop the bleeding when it comes to the fraud.”

So, this morning’s event was a kickoff event, an inaugural event, with state and federal partners to get together in a room and say, “Hey, if we don’t solve it, no one else will.”

And so, we’ve had great reception here in Ohio. Partnerships including the sharing of data and also including the provision of prosecutors to join the Department of Justice’s Fraud Division and other agreements down the line to make sure that we can remove information silos so that we can have and sing off the same sheet of music when it comes to the data that exists out there, so that we can more quickly illuminate the fraudsters in Ohio and then bring them to justice.

Cooke: Well, thank you. It’s exciting that Ohio’s the first and shining example, but I have to share with you that people in Ohio are deeply frustrated because fraud has been rampant for decades. Why do you think it’s taken so long, and what can we do to make sure we expedite these processes?

McDonald: Yeah, fighting fraud requires resolve and focus and leadership. And I’m grateful on the federal side, under President [Donald] Trump, Vice President [JD] Vance, Acting Attorney General [Todd] Blanche. Those three men are laser-focused on solving this problem for the American people.

And so, I would say that is the biggest sea change, leadership, and the leaders in the room saying, “We’re not going to tolerate this anymore. We’re going to actually do something about it, and we’re going to put our money where our mouth is, which is we’re going to put resources behind this work so that we actually have a broad enough fraud-fighting apparatus to engage with the fraudsters so that we’re not outnumbered.”

So, we’re in that process right now of building out our squad, both in D.C. but more so nationally, to make sure that we have prosecutors out there in the districts, in the states where the fraud is happening so that we can bring bad actors to justice.

So, that would be my answer, leadership. And we have that leadership, steer, and desire and purpose. There’s a purpose behind what we’re doing, and that comes from the top.

Cooke: Well, I have to say there’s no doubt that the political will and desire to protect taxpayers is there by this administration.

I think the deeper concern is Ohio and then Columbus, Ohio. We have the second-largest Somali population, and out of that we have seen a robust operation of home health care fraud. We’re seeing other avenues of fraud in other programs as well.

And the silo approach in our states, and I’m seeing this across the country, where there’s no data sharing even amongst state agencies.

Like a Republican state in Ohio, we have the governor’s office here who’s refusing to give public records. So, we’ve asked for, at the Daily Signal, public records of just how much we’re spending for home health care services, not patient data, nothing confidential. And after five months, the Ohio Governor’s Office Department of Medicaid responded that they subcontracted this to a private operator and that I had to go to them to ask for those records.

What can you do at the DOJ so a taxpayer like me and millions of others across the state just have visibility into how the states are managing our money?

McDonald: Yeah. Well, it’s a very big problem on the federal side where we give over billions of dollars to states across the country, and then in many instances, we never see what happens with that money afterwards. And some states do good, some states do not do well at all with providing proper accounting for that money. So, it is a big problem.

And those information silos that you talk about, where the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing, and the federal government is denied visibility into certain documents, we’re dealing with that in the state of Minnesota right now, and other states who are even going so far as to sue us to prevent us from having access to records that would probably very likely demonstrate fraud.

And you kind of have to ask, why would someone be trying to keep records from us to help us illuminate the fraudulent actors? It is a question I think everyone should pose.

So, what we plan to do, we mentioned this morning at the roundtable, is we are building out a prosecutor-led national fraud detection center, which breaks down those information silos and brings together data from federal agencies and also state partners so that we can bring that data together to see and identify the fraudsters who are defrauding multiple programs at the same time in many instances.

And this has never been done before, to have that cross-program visibility.

We’re going to build that. We’re in the process right now of doing that so that we can identify the very small percentage of people who rip off the United States time and time again. This will give us the ability to put a microscope on those people, and they won’t be able to hide because the data talks and it talks loudly.

And when we get everybody to give it to us and we can look at it, we are going to be able to unmask those fraudulent actors.

Cooke: Will taxpayers have access to this data once you’re able to create it nationwide?

McDonald: So, the fraud detection center will be prosecution-focused.

Cooke: So …

McDonald: It will fall in line with the standard protocols for the treatment and collection of criminal evidence. And so in that regard, no. But in the other sense, what we are trying to do is build out a robust platform for messaging to the American people.

What are we finding and who are we prosecuting?

And also, being able to use what we’re learning to go to the policymakers and share that with the policymakers to say, “Hey, these are the flaws in the system. This is how you need to do better with your security protocols to make sure that the money doesn’t go out the door in the first place.”

Because that’s better for everybody if there are systems in place that can prevent the money and capture the fraudster before they have consummated the fraud.

So, we will be as transparent as possible within the confines of what the federal rules of criminal procedure allow for us to be.

But also, we do plan to tell the American people how they are being ripped off, because the more they know, the more the public will support all the work that we’re doing and will ensure that no one can remain on the sidelines, that everyone will join the team because they’ll see that they need to get in the game.

Cooke: Well, that’s incredible because one of the big things you highlighted is not only transparency but deterrence, so that the bad guys out there know that you’re watching and that you’re exposing it, so they are less likely to commit fraud.

One of the best parts about the conference that you just led, the roundtable, was your drive to say there should be fewer prosecutions in years to come because deterrence is working. Can you comment a little bit more on that?

McDonald: Yes. The best case for a country, for a state, for a society, is in the end you have demonstrated the power of the prosecutor to be able to reach those who are committing crime.

And when you demonstrate that, if there is a crime, there is a consequence, that you will reap what you sow, and you demonstrate that the prosecutor apparatus is large enough to reach you, then people don’t commit crimes. They think twice. They realize, “I shouldn’t lie. I shouldn’t cheat. I shouldn’t steal.” Very basic things.

But where you do not have that apparatus built out, people think they can get away with it.

So, you have a lot of fraudsters who have, for many years, been enjoying the darkness and being able to steal from the American people in the dark, no visibility, and funding their very lavish lifestyles. So, they do not feel the concern that a prosecutor might be knocking on their door, or a federal agent might be knocking on their door at 6 a.m. the next morning. That’s what I want to change.

I want to change that whole dynamic such that if you’re a fraudster and you go to bed tonight, you are worried that you are going to get a knock on your door at six o’clock tomorrow morning. And if you make it to 6:30 tomorrow morning, you should say a prayer because you’ve got another day. But guess what? You’ve got to go to bed that night worried about six o’clock the next morning. That’s what I want. I want fraudsters worried about six o’clock in the morning.

Cooke: Well, I congratulate the drive and the implementation. Ohio’s the first state. What’s your message to other states about getting on board so we have a 50-state solution to fraud? And the most important part of this is, if there’s reluctance, what do you say to those states?

McDonald: I would say leave the reluctance behind. Get on board the fraud-fighting team. We have room for everyone. Our division that we’ve created is the National Fraud Enforcement Division, and we chose that word purposefully, which is that the fraud is national.

And we’ve announced in the last 64 days or so over 550 major fraud takedowns, arrests, convictions, and sentences across the entirety of the United States of America. So, we are moving quickly to build out our fraud-fighting apparatus.

We invite everyone to join us, as you’ve seen today with different members of the Ohio coalition agreeing to join us and come alongside us. That’s what we want. If we come together, we can solve this problem. If we stay in our own corners and not cooperate, it won’t work.

Cooke: Thank you so much for your leadership on this. It’s a pleasure to have you in Ohio, and I continue to see your great work across the country.

McDonald: Thank you so much.

AUTHOR

Mehek Cooke

Mehek Cooke is senior national security and legal analyst for the Daily Signal. Follow on X MehekCooke.

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